Chapter 22: My Marshmallow Caught Fire

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You ever get that feeling like you're trying to get someone to, I don't know, just get going?

Yeah, yeah.

Like a kid with their homework or, heck, even yourself with something you really don't want to do.

Totally.

It's like pushing a boulder uphill, right?

The worst.

Well, good news is you are so not alone in that feeling.

And today, we're diving deep into something that gets right to the core of that.

Motivation and autonomy.

Ooh, interesting.

We're going to be looking at a chapter called, get this, My Marshmallow Caught Fire, Motivation and Autonomy.

Catchy title.

Right.

And it really digs into why some folks, especially kids, seem to have like zero motivation.

What's going on there?

I'm intrigued already.

This chapter pulls a lot from the work of psychologist, Natalie Rathbun, and the self -determination theory from Edward Deasey.

Oh yeah, Deasey.

His stuff is like the foundation for so much of this.

Exactly.

And, listener, what we really want to do today is kind of untangle this whole motivation thing.

Why do the usual tricks, the rewards, the threats, why do they so often just flop?

And how does that real deal, that firing your belly motivation, how does that actually happen?

Where does it come from?

Big questions.

Huge.

So, maybe the best place to start is with, like, the basics.

What even is motivation, really?

Well, Edward Deasey, he says it straight up.

He says, the truth is that there are no techniques that will motivate people or make them autonomous.

Oh, look at that.

Motivation must come from within.

He's really emphasizing that it has to be internal.

So it's not something you can, like, force on someone else.

Exactly.

It's not about finding the perfect reward system or taking away the right privileges.

No magic bullet.

Nope.

The chapter's big point is that true motivation, it's not a technique, it's not a trick, it's something a person decides.

They decide to own their actions, own their responsibility.

Jake Sins, but then how do we explain those kids who, like, just can't seem to get going?

Well, Rathfun, she describes this unmotivated child.

It's really spot on.

Imagine a kid, right?

They can do great, even amazing, when they've got your full attention, like one -on -one help.

Okay, I've seen that.

But the second they're on their own,

it all falls apart.

They get fidgety, they can't focus, they don't get anything done.

Ugh, yeah.

It's like pulling teeth to get them started on anything and forget about actually finishing it.

And another thing, Rathfun points out, they kind of zone out when you're giving them instructions.

It's like they're actively not listening.

And if they're not the center of attention,

they become a distraction machine for themselves, for everyone else.

Oh yeah, it's like they need that spotlight.

Plus, you often see them having trouble with other kids their age, always complaining that someone's bothering them.

Same with siblings, lots of friction there.

So it's not just about schoolwork, it's like their whole way of being in the world.

It really is.

And they can have these, like, explosive temper tantrums, or their mood just flips on a dime.

They're constantly demanding stuff,

but nothing satisfies them for long.

And get this.

They need way more help than other kids their age.

For things they should totally be able to do themselves.

Exactly.

And let's not forget the total chaos.

Their backpack's a black hole, their room's a disaster zone.

I know that look.

What's super interesting here is that the chapter connects this to Attention Deficit Disorder, or ADD.

It says, not every kid with these unmotivated behaviors has ADD, but those ADD struggles with self -regulation, with internal drive.

It often looks a lot like this.

So it's not just a matter of, like, willpower or trying harder, there's something else going on.

Could be some brain stuff, too.

And this lack of drive, it can even affect the things they're excited about at first.

They might love a new game, a new project, but then...

Poof.

The interest is gone.

It's like they just run out of steam.

And so naturally, parents want to know, how do I fix this?

How do I motivate my kid?

That's the million dollar question.

Right.

And we talked about this idea of counter will before, right?

Natural pushback kids have when they feel controlled.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, the chapter says, trying to force motivation, it can actually make that counter will worse.

So the quick fixes, like threats, no screen time if you don't finish this, or bribes, and A, gets you that toy.

It might work in the moment, but...

But long -term, it messes with their own internal motivation.

They're not learning to want to do things.

They're just chasing the reward or avoiding the punishment.

So it's not really their motivation, it's ours.

Exactly.

And what we should be doing is cultivating intrinsic motivation.

The kind that comes from the kid's own interests, their own curiosity.

Not from us.

Okay, so how do we do that?

How do we make that happen?

The chapter talks about Edward Ducey's idea of universal human needs.

Fill me in.

He says there are these needs that every single person has.

Like the need for self -determination, that feeling of having control over your own choices, your own actions.

Oh, okay, I get that.

Then there's the need for competence, feeling like you're good at things, that you can handle stuff.

Makes sense.

And then the need for relatedness, that desire to connect with others, to feel like you belong.

So basically, feeling capable, connected, and in control.

Exactly.

And the key thing is,

these needs and the drive to satisfy them, it's not something we learn.

It's already there, built in.

So then why are so many kids seemingly unmotivated, if it's like hardwired into us?

The chapter argues that it's often not the kid's fault.

It's that our parenting,

our teaching,

it can accidentally create an environment that actually blocks those natural needs.

Like we're getting in the way without realizing it.

Yeah, maybe we're so busy trying to, I don't know, inject motivation from the outside that we're actually stopping it from growing naturally.

Yeah, it's deep.

And the chapter even says that all this external pushing, it might be coming from our anxieties as parents.

Like, maybe we don't really believe that our kid has what it takes.

Ooh, that's got to sting a little.

And think about it, if a kid always feels like they're trying to meet our expectations and they're not quite getting there, it can make them feel really inadequate.

If they're not good enough.

Right.

Or even if they do well, they might never really feel that satisfaction of doing it because they wanted to.

They might not even know what they want, if they're always focused on what we want.

And their self -esteem becomes all about achievements,

instead of just, you know, being themselves.

That's heavy stuff.

So this idea of true motivation, it's about doing things because you find them satisfying.

Yeah.

Not because someone else approves, or because you think you should, or even to rebel against someone.

It's like honoring your own inner compass.

As long as they're not hurting anyone.

Of course.

But for kids, especially those with ADD, the chapter says that secure attachment is crucial for developing that kind of motivation.

Huge.

It's like the bedrock.

Why is that sense of security so important?

Well, without it, a kid's always going to be running on anxiety.

And that makes it really hard to just, you know, be in the world, explore, learn.

They're too busy worrying.

By the time they hit school, they might be super focused on what everyone else thinks.

Always trying to get approval.

And that can lead to some interesting behavior.

For sure.

Like you get those kids who are defiant at home, always pushing back against their parents.

Yeah.

But then at school, they're desperate for their friend's acceptance, even if it means getting treated badly.

That seems kind of backwards.

The chapter explains that it's not them being contradictory, it's just that their own sense of self, their own will, it's not quite there yet.

So they look for that acceptance elsewhere.

It's like they're trying to fill a void.

And all that juggling between parental pressure and peer pressure, it leaves no room for their own motivation to develop.

So secure attachment is key.

And the other biggie is autonomy.

Yeah.

Disad defines it as that feeling that your behavior is your choice, not something forced on you.

The initial spark comes from you.

So it's about having agency.

And supporting autonomy.

It's not about letting kids run wild.

It's about trying to see things from their point of view.

Okay.

So less do this because I said so and more.

More like encouraging them to start things themselves, to experiment, to take responsibility.

So it's still okay to have limits and rules.

Absolutely.

But it's about how you do it.

Encouragement over pressure,

understanding over control.

Because I think some parents hear autonomy and they imagine like total chaos, no rules whatsoever.

It's not that at all.

It's more about the spirit of the rules and how much say the kid has in things.

And speaking of well -meaning but maybe not so helpful things, rewards and praise.

Oh yeah, that's a tricky one.

The chapter cautions against using them too much as motivators.

Even though they seem positive, they can actually be a sneaky kind of pressure.

How so?

Well first,

they can make kids think that our love is based on their achievements, not just who they are.

Especially tough for kids with ADD who already might be struggling with self -doubt.

Then, even if it's positive, any reward or praise can feel like our will being imposed on them.

Triggering that counter will.

Right.

And lastly, the reward, the praise, it becomes the goal.

They forget about actually enjoying the activity itself.

It becomes all about getting that external pat on the back.

Exactly.

So they might do the bare minimum, look for shortcuts, maybe even cheat.

Not exactly the outcome we're hoping for.

Nope.

So instead of carrots and sticks, the chapter says we should try to see things from the kid's perspective and give them as many real choices as we can.

Within reason, of course.

Obviously.

So like, instead of saying, herm work time now.

Which is what I usually do, yeah.

You could say, hey, I see you're not really feeling homework right now.

When would be a good time to tackle it tonight?

That gives them some ownership, right?

Exactly.

And it's also good to just be present, especially when they're doing something that makes them anxious.

Homework.

Right.

Not hovering, not micromanaging, just being nearby.

That makes a big difference because it's so easy to fall into that trap of sitting right there with them, pointing out every mistake.

And as they get older,

like teenagers,

real autonomy means letting them face the natural consequences of their choices.

So if they don't do their homework, it's the school's problem, not mine.

Well, you could still care, but you don't have to pile on extra punishments.

You're not the homework police anymore.

Right.

And through all of this, having a supportive family is so important.

A calm atmosphere, regular routines, parents who are there for them.

That stable base.

It makes all the difference in the world.

But of course, limits are still important, right?

Right.

We talked about supporting autonomy, but it's not the same as being permissive.

The chapter really emphasizes that.

Clear boundaries, consistent rules, they're crucial.

It helps them feel safe and it teaches them to respect others.

And it keeps them from being overwhelmed by too many choices.

Especially when they're little.

The trick is to be as generous as possible with those boundaries to give them as much choice as you can.

And to explain why the rules exist.

So it's not just because I said so.

The dreaded phrase.

But the chapter also reminds us that Stanley Greenspan talked about this link between setting limits and offering empathy.

Oh, that's so important.

Especially for sensitive kids, like those with ADD.

The more structure and limits you have, the more empathy you need to give.

Makes sense.

Because empathy keeps them from shutting down when they hear no.

And structure keeps them from feeling lost and anxious.

It's about finding that balance.

And Greenspan has this great quote, he says, the key is to emphasize what the child's feeling,

even if it is a feeling you don't like.

It's not about approving of their behavior, it's about understanding it.

Exactly.

And when you acknowledge their feelings, name them, it actually helps them develop their autonomy.

Really?

How so?

It's about symbolization, putting those feelings into words.

Because language gives them more options than just acting out.

So instead of having a meltdown, they can say, I'm really angry about this.

Exactly.

And that gives them more control.

Language helps them be free from their own impulses.

That's powerful.

And it's also important to remember that we should be talking to the child, not just about the deed, trying to understand their motive.

Especially for kids who might struggle with, like, controlling their movements or impulses.

And when they mess up, the chapter talks about natural consequences, the stuff that just happens naturally as a result of their actions.

As opposed to punishments that we come up with.

Right.

Like if they missed the bus because they weren't ready,

the natural consequence is being late for school.

And having to deal with whatever the school does about that.

We don't need to add on extra punishments like no TV for a week.

That always felt kind of arbitrary anyway.

The chapter argues that those kinds of punishments, they can actually make things worse.

They don't really connect the punishment to the action.

And it can mess with their sense of security, their autonomy, their ability to learn responsibility.

It's more about us being in control than it is about them learning.

And there's this funny bit in the chapter about a Gary Larson cartoon.

Oh yeah, I remember that.

It's a cowboy getting shot for laughing when someone's marshmallow catches fire.

It's so ridiculous, but it makes the point perfectly.

Like those punishments, they just don't make sense to kids.

And the chapter says that these kinds of punishments, they just make kids resist more.

And it makes them feel worse about themselves, especially if they're already struggling.

Instead of wanting to do better, they just feel bad.

So what's the alternative?

Well, the chapter talks about Gordon Neufeld's idea of willpower as a muscle.

Okay, I like that.

He says, we can't make a kid's willpower stronger,

just like we can't make their biceps bigger for them.

But we can create the right conditions.

Exactly, like giving them opportunities to make choices and then letting them experience the natural consequences.

So they get to practice using that muscle.

And the last big worry that parents have about all this autonomy stuff is, what if it makes my kid selfish?

Right, that's a common one.

The chapter says that fear comes from a misunderstanding of how kids work.

They're not inherently little monsters.

They're actually wired to connect with others, to care.

Socialization is a natural drive.

We don't have to force it on them.

It happens best when their basic needs are met, that secure attachment, that autonomy.

So first they feel safe and secure, then they get to practice making choices, and then...

Then they naturally want to connect with others, be kind, be part of the group.

Like a pyramid.

Exactly.

But if we try to force that socialization before the other stuff is in place...

It's like trying to build a pyramid upside down.

It's not going to work.

You just get compliance, not real caring.

So we've covered a lot.

What's the big takeaway here?

The chapter really recommends Natalie Rathvon's book, The Unmotivated Child.

I've heard good things about that one.

Especially if you've got a kid who's showing signs of ADD.

The author does have one little disagreement with Rathvon, though.

Oh, what's that?

Rathvon sometimes makes a distinction between kids with ADD and kids who are just unmotivated.

But the chapter author says that difference might not be so important.

Because a lack of motivation is often a big part of ADD anyway.

Makes sense.

So to wrap it all up, true motivation, it comes from inside, not from external pressure.

It needs that secure base of attachment and lots of chances to practice being autonomous.

And those punishments, they often do more harm than good.

Better to focus on understanding empathy and letting natural consequences do their thing.

So, listener, think about your own life.

Where are you feeling that external pressure?

What would change if you gave yourself or your loved ones more space for autonomy, more genuine choices?

Could that lead to a more fulfilling life, a life where you're doing things because you truly want to?

It's something to ponder.

Thanks for joining us on this deep dive.

Lots to think about, for sure.